THE ILIAD (Gillian Cross / Neil Packer) DISCUSSION
INTRODUCTION –
There are many things in nature that begin as something very small: a huge watermelon began as a small seed. The quarrel that resulted in a huge ten year war in the Iliad, began from something small. What other things can you think of (other than seeds) that started from something small but became much more?
THE GOLDEN APPLE -
All three of the bribes "appear" wonderful! However, the Trojan war began over Paris' choice. What "words" in the bribe he chose resulted in the problem? Look at Hera's bribe –"I will give you power and make you a great ruled." Look at each word carefully. Do you see anything that might have proven a problem for it as well? What about Athene's bribe: "I will ensure that you win all your battles and become a famous warrior." What hidden problems might be lurking in the way her bribe is given?
THE QUARREL -
Reactions are the way we respond to what happens to us. Sometimes the way we react creates a bigger problem. Sometimes the way we react solves a problem. How does the way Agamemnon and Achilles react affect them both and others? What do you think must happen for us to avoid reactions that complicate our lives? How can we learn to do those things?
In Homer's stories there are three things that determine what happens: FATE (the ancient Greeks believed certain things would happen no matter what you did or didn't do); the gods (the gods sometimes intervened when they liked or disliked someone or when they believed someone was working against their "fate); the reaction and choices of a person. Throughout "The Iliad" all three of these things drive the story. What is Aphrodite's motive for protecting Paris?
INSIDE THE WALLS OF TROY -
Hector's decision to do all he can to defend Troy, despite the poor choice of his brother, can be called "a choiceless choice." Explain what you think this means. What does Hector believe about FATE? Would that belief make him more bold or less bold?
SINGLE COMBAT
Athene and Apollo are an example of compromise in this chapter. Explain what they means and why?
Why do you think Athene and Apollo are pictures as vultures?
What can we determine about the Greeks' and Trojan's beliefs by what they expect to happen with the body and armor of the loser?
If Ajax and Hector are enemies, why do you give each other a gift when neither defeats the other? What does that signify?
PARIS MAKES AN OFFER AND THE GREEKS MAKE A WALL
Antenor asked why they were fighting since it was NOT an honorable war? Do you think the Greeks were fighting an "honorable" war. Why or why not?
Old Nestor's plan is creative and well-thought out. What ONE thing makes it the MOST creative and likely to work? Why?
The Greeks' purpose for war has changed from what it first was. How is it different now and why is their purpose different?
Why did the truce work?
What was the purpose of the wall? Why did they construct it at night?
Why are the thick clouds and thunder above the Greeks' ships? Explain.
GREEKS ON THE RUN
Why is Zeus against the Greeks? How does Zeus intervene in the battle?
Does Hector know that Zeus helped him? Explain.
Why was the gate of the Greeks' wall so congested?
What turned this battle around? Why?
Why do you think Hector had his troops make camp on the plain when the walls of Troy were so close?
PLEADING WITH ACHILLES
What would be the most horrible things about the Trojans burning the ships of the Greeks?
Why do the leaders blame Agamemnon for their defeats?
What two reasons does Achilles give for not agreeing to help in the war? What do you think about his refusal?
SPIES
Why is Diomedes so willing to have Odysseus along to spy?
What does the Trojan, Dolon, agree to sneak into the Greek camp and spy?
The text states:
"No other Trojan shall ride behind those horses," said Hector.
(If only he'd been able to look into the future! If only he'd guess which Trojan would really travel behind Achilles's horses! But he didn't know what he was saving.)
What do you think this might be suggesting?
How did Diomedes and Odysseus make sure Dolon would not spy on them again?
How did Diomedes' and Odyseeus' spying inspire the Greeks to fight again?
DISASTER FOR THE GREEKS
How does Zeus CHANGE the way he helps the Trojans from how he helped them before?
How did the death of the bridegroom bring out the wounding of Agamemnon?
How are Paris's fighting tactics different from Hector's? What do you think about Paris?
What do you think about Achilles? What is it Achilles wants when he says, "They'll come and grovel to me now?"
How do you think Patroclus truly feels about the war and Achilles refusal to fight? Why do you think this?
What do you think the eagle with the bloody snake in its beak means?
THE GODS INTERFERE
Why do the gods betray Zeus?
Do you think Agamemnon is a good leader? Why or why not?
Why do you think that when warriors SEE their leaders they are encouraged to fight harder? Why do you think that when warriors SEE their leaders wounded they lose their fighting spirit?
Once Zeus wakes up we understand more clearly why he is against the Greeks. What is his reason? What does he do to show is anger at the gods who betrayed him and the Greeks?
PATROCLUS IN DISGUISE
Ajax's strength is seen in his power to use a 40 foot pole as a tool to knock the Trojans over as he leaps from ship to ship, however the Trojans are in place to set the ships on fire. Patroclus still is unable to arouse Achilles to fight. Why do you think Patroclus believes he needs to wear the armor of Achilles to save their ships and cause the Trojans to retreat?
What makes Achilles horses different from all others?
How many warriors belonged to Achilles?
Zeus heard Achilles pray. Why do you think he decided to only grant half of it?
PATROCLUS MEETS HIS FATE
What proof do we see in this chapter that shows Patroclu is loyal to Achilles despite his refusal to fight?
Why did the Trojans run?
Why order did Achilles give Patroclus before he left? Why did Patroclus disobey Achilles order?
Why did Apollo intervene when Patroclus climbed the walls of Troy?
What "prophecy" does Apollo give in this section that tells us fate will have its way?
What happened that revealed to the Trojans who Patroclus was? Why did Apollo do this?
What threat does Patroclus give Hector before he dies?
Why does Hector put on Achilles armor? Why does Hector want the body of Patroclus so badly?
How was Zeus's concern for the Greeks changed? How do you know this? What caused the Greeks to panic?
THE WONDERFUL ARMOR
What finally caused Achilles to enter the battle?
Do you think Achilles was responsible for Patroclus's death? Why or why not?
Now we know how Zeus granted "half" of Achilles' prayer. What did he DO that he wanted and what did he not do? Why didn't Zeus save Patroclus?
Achilles says, "My honor is lost forever –unless I kill Hector!" Do you agree or disagree?
How does Thetis help Achilles? What does she tell him to do?
What urgent message does Iris bring Achilles from Hera? What does she say will happen if he doesn not let the Trojans see him in battle –even without armor?
What does Athene do that causes the Trojans to panic? What was Athene's purpose in causing the panic?
Which god does Thetis go to to make the armor for Achilles? Why him?
Why is Hephaestus so loyal to Thetis? What is so unusual about his maidservants?
ACHILLES GOES INTO BATTLE
Why do you think Achilles was ready to make peace with Agamemnon?
What wisdom to Odysseus impress upon Achilles who wanted to begin the battle immediately?
How did Zeus help Achilles put aside his grief and be filled with the power he needed for the battle?
What does Xanthus reveal to Achilles about Patroclu' death and about his own coming death?
THE GODS JOIN IN
Why does Zeus decide that the gods must intervene when Achilles enters the battle in his armor?
Zeus' orders to the god is a bit strange, for it is still focused on not overturning fate. What did he tell them to do?
Which gods helped the Greeks? Which gods helps the Trojans?
Why did the sky grow dark and the earth's foundations shake?
Achilles is focused on ONE THING. What is it?
Apollo disguised himself as Hector's brother Deiphobus. What does he say to convince Aeneas he must face Achilles?
Why two truths cause Poseidon go against Athene and Hera? How does he intervene?
What causes Hector to ignore Apollo's warning?
Again, the gods intervene –what does Athene? Why?
What does Apollo do? Why?
Do you think the Trojan War was a fair battle or was it a fair battle because the gods intervened? Think about it. Back up what you say with facts.
THE FIGHTING RIVER
Achilles split the Trojan army in half –one half inside the walls of Troy and the other half in the river Scamander. What did Achilles do that shows he has no mercy after Patroclus' death?
Why does the river god fight Achilles?
When Achilles cries to Zeus to rescue him from the river god, we learn exactly how Achilles is fated to die. How is that to happen?
Does Zeus intervene to help him? Think about it? How do the gods intervene to save him?
Explain what happens that results in Achilles being led away from Troy's city gate by Apollo without Achilles realizing it is Apollo?
HECTOR'S LAST STAND
Why does Hector blame himself for the loss of so many Trojan lives?
Why did Hector run from Achilles after wanting to fight him so badly?
The text says:
"Three times they circled the city, racing flat out. With every ounce of their strength, they were racing for the prize they both wanted.
Hector's life."
What does that mean?
Why does Athene accuse Zeus of considering "interfering with destiny?"
How does Athene trick Hector and why does she do it?
What is the agreement Hector wants to make with Achilles before they fight? Does Achilles agree? Why?
Why do you think Athene saves Hector from Achille's great spear, but then disappears (she's pretending to be his brother) when he asks for another spear?
Achille's takes his own armor from Hector and desecrates his body. What does that mean?
How was Hector's death made unbearable for Priam and Hecuba?
HONOR AND DISHONOR
What do you think honor is? What do you think dishonor is?
Why do you think Achilles dreamed the dream?
What did Achilles do to show his deep love for Patroclus?
What did Aphrodite, who Paris chose to give the golden apple to that started the entire war, do protect Hector's body?
What did Achilles do each day to desecrate Hector's body?
King Priam humbled himself out of love and devotion to his son, Hector. What did he did do that was humble? Why did he humble himself?
What did Zeus send Hermes to do? How did he accomplish his task?
Look at each thing that Priam said to Achilles. Why do you think his words managed to pierce Achilles heart and cause him to give Hector's body back to his father? What did respectful did Achilles do that Priam did not ask for?
EPILOGUE
The quarrel between Achilles and Agamemnon was settled, but it cause the death of hundreds of Trojan and Greek warriors and two great heroes. How did Achille's die? How was Apollo to blame as prophesied?
Ajax and Odysseus quarreled over Achilles's armor. What happened in that quarrel?
Why were the Trojans not suspicious of the giant horse?
How did the gods intervene so the Trojans didn't learn the truth about the horse before it was too late? (two)
How was Troy destroyed?
What happened after the war was over?
IS THE ILIAD A TRUE STORY?
This chapter explains why it is thought "The Iliad" is part history and part fiction. Why do they say they happened?
Where are the remains of the city that archaeologists believe was Troy?
Why don't we know whether or not Hector and Achilles were real people?
INTRODUCTION –
There are many things in nature that begin as something very small: a huge watermelon began as a small seed. The quarrel that resulted in a huge ten year war in the Iliad, began from something small. What other things can you think of (other than seeds) that started from something small but became much more?
THE GOLDEN APPLE -
All three of the bribes "appear" wonderful! However, the Trojan war began over Paris' choice. What "words" in the bribe he chose resulted in the problem? Look at Hera's bribe –"I will give you power and make you a great ruled." Look at each word carefully. Do you see anything that might have proven a problem for it as well? What about Athene's bribe: "I will ensure that you win all your battles and become a famous warrior." What hidden problems might be lurking in the way her bribe is given?
THE QUARREL -
Reactions are the way we respond to what happens to us. Sometimes the way we react creates a bigger problem. Sometimes the way we react solves a problem. How does the way Agamemnon and Achilles react affect them both and others? What do you think must happen for us to avoid reactions that complicate our lives? How can we learn to do those things?
In Homer's stories there are three things that determine what happens: FATE (the ancient Greeks believed certain things would happen no matter what you did or didn't do); the gods (the gods sometimes intervened when they liked or disliked someone or when they believed someone was working against their "fate); the reaction and choices of a person. Throughout "The Iliad" all three of these things drive the story. What is Aphrodite's motive for protecting Paris?
INSIDE THE WALLS OF TROY -
Hector's decision to do all he can to defend Troy, despite the poor choice of his brother, can be called "a choiceless choice." Explain what you think this means. What does Hector believe about FATE? Would that belief make him more bold or less bold?
SINGLE COMBAT
Athene and Apollo are an example of compromise in this chapter. Explain what they means and why?
Why do you think Athene and Apollo are pictures as vultures?
What can we determine about the Greeks' and Trojan's beliefs by what they expect to happen with the body and armor of the loser?
If Ajax and Hector are enemies, why do you give each other a gift when neither defeats the other? What does that signify?
PARIS MAKES AN OFFER AND THE GREEKS MAKE A WALL
Antenor asked why they were fighting since it was NOT an honorable war? Do you think the Greeks were fighting an "honorable" war. Why or why not?
Old Nestor's plan is creative and well-thought out. What ONE thing makes it the MOST creative and likely to work? Why?
The Greeks' purpose for war has changed from what it first was. How is it different now and why is their purpose different?
Why did the truce work?
What was the purpose of the wall? Why did they construct it at night?
Why are the thick clouds and thunder above the Greeks' ships? Explain.
GREEKS ON THE RUN
Why is Zeus against the Greeks? How does Zeus intervene in the battle?
Does Hector know that Zeus helped him? Explain.
Why was the gate of the Greeks' wall so congested?
What turned this battle around? Why?
Why do you think Hector had his troops make camp on the plain when the walls of Troy were so close?
PLEADING WITH ACHILLES
What would be the most horrible things about the Trojans burning the ships of the Greeks?
Why do the leaders blame Agamemnon for their defeats?
What two reasons does Achilles give for not agreeing to help in the war? What do you think about his refusal?
SPIES
Why is Diomedes so willing to have Odysseus along to spy?
What does the Trojan, Dolon, agree to sneak into the Greek camp and spy?
The text states:
"No other Trojan shall ride behind those horses," said Hector.
(If only he'd been able to look into the future! If only he'd guess which Trojan would really travel behind Achilles's horses! But he didn't know what he was saving.)
What do you think this might be suggesting?
How did Diomedes and Odysseus make sure Dolon would not spy on them again?
How did Diomedes' and Odyseeus' spying inspire the Greeks to fight again?
DISASTER FOR THE GREEKS
How does Zeus CHANGE the way he helps the Trojans from how he helped them before?
How did the death of the bridegroom bring out the wounding of Agamemnon?
How are Paris's fighting tactics different from Hector's? What do you think about Paris?
What do you think about Achilles? What is it Achilles wants when he says, "They'll come and grovel to me now?"
How do you think Patroclus truly feels about the war and Achilles refusal to fight? Why do you think this?
What do you think the eagle with the bloody snake in its beak means?
THE GODS INTERFERE
Why do the gods betray Zeus?
Do you think Agamemnon is a good leader? Why or why not?
Why do you think that when warriors SEE their leaders they are encouraged to fight harder? Why do you think that when warriors SEE their leaders wounded they lose their fighting spirit?
Once Zeus wakes up we understand more clearly why he is against the Greeks. What is his reason? What does he do to show is anger at the gods who betrayed him and the Greeks?
PATROCLUS IN DISGUISE
Ajax's strength is seen in his power to use a 40 foot pole as a tool to knock the Trojans over as he leaps from ship to ship, however the Trojans are in place to set the ships on fire. Patroclus still is unable to arouse Achilles to fight. Why do you think Patroclus believes he needs to wear the armor of Achilles to save their ships and cause the Trojans to retreat?
What makes Achilles horses different from all others?
How many warriors belonged to Achilles?
Zeus heard Achilles pray. Why do you think he decided to only grant half of it?
PATROCLUS MEETS HIS FATE
What proof do we see in this chapter that shows Patroclu is loyal to Achilles despite his refusal to fight?
Why did the Trojans run?
Why order did Achilles give Patroclus before he left? Why did Patroclus disobey Achilles order?
Why did Apollo intervene when Patroclus climbed the walls of Troy?
What "prophecy" does Apollo give in this section that tells us fate will have its way?
What happened that revealed to the Trojans who Patroclus was? Why did Apollo do this?
What threat does Patroclus give Hector before he dies?
Why does Hector put on Achilles armor? Why does Hector want the body of Patroclus so badly?
How was Zeus's concern for the Greeks changed? How do you know this? What caused the Greeks to panic?
THE WONDERFUL ARMOR
What finally caused Achilles to enter the battle?
Do you think Achilles was responsible for Patroclus's death? Why or why not?
Now we know how Zeus granted "half" of Achilles' prayer. What did he DO that he wanted and what did he not do? Why didn't Zeus save Patroclus?
Achilles says, "My honor is lost forever –unless I kill Hector!" Do you agree or disagree?
How does Thetis help Achilles? What does she tell him to do?
What urgent message does Iris bring Achilles from Hera? What does she say will happen if he doesn not let the Trojans see him in battle –even without armor?
What does Athene do that causes the Trojans to panic? What was Athene's purpose in causing the panic?
Which god does Thetis go to to make the armor for Achilles? Why him?
Why is Hephaestus so loyal to Thetis? What is so unusual about his maidservants?
ACHILLES GOES INTO BATTLE
Why do you think Achilles was ready to make peace with Agamemnon?
What wisdom to Odysseus impress upon Achilles who wanted to begin the battle immediately?
How did Zeus help Achilles put aside his grief and be filled with the power he needed for the battle?
What does Xanthus reveal to Achilles about Patroclu' death and about his own coming death?
THE GODS JOIN IN
Why does Zeus decide that the gods must intervene when Achilles enters the battle in his armor?
Zeus' orders to the god is a bit strange, for it is still focused on not overturning fate. What did he tell them to do?
Which gods helped the Greeks? Which gods helps the Trojans?
Why did the sky grow dark and the earth's foundations shake?
Achilles is focused on ONE THING. What is it?
Apollo disguised himself as Hector's brother Deiphobus. What does he say to convince Aeneas he must face Achilles?
Why two truths cause Poseidon go against Athene and Hera? How does he intervene?
What causes Hector to ignore Apollo's warning?
Again, the gods intervene –what does Athene? Why?
What does Apollo do? Why?
Do you think the Trojan War was a fair battle or was it a fair battle because the gods intervened? Think about it. Back up what you say with facts.
THE FIGHTING RIVER
Achilles split the Trojan army in half –one half inside the walls of Troy and the other half in the river Scamander. What did Achilles do that shows he has no mercy after Patroclus' death?
Why does the river god fight Achilles?
When Achilles cries to Zeus to rescue him from the river god, we learn exactly how Achilles is fated to die. How is that to happen?
Does Zeus intervene to help him? Think about it? How do the gods intervene to save him?
Explain what happens that results in Achilles being led away from Troy's city gate by Apollo without Achilles realizing it is Apollo?
HECTOR'S LAST STAND
Why does Hector blame himself for the loss of so many Trojan lives?
Why did Hector run from Achilles after wanting to fight him so badly?
The text says:
"Three times they circled the city, racing flat out. With every ounce of their strength, they were racing for the prize they both wanted.
Hector's life."
What does that mean?
Why does Athene accuse Zeus of considering "interfering with destiny?"
How does Athene trick Hector and why does she do it?
What is the agreement Hector wants to make with Achilles before they fight? Does Achilles agree? Why?
Why do you think Athene saves Hector from Achille's great spear, but then disappears (she's pretending to be his brother) when he asks for another spear?
Achille's takes his own armor from Hector and desecrates his body. What does that mean?
How was Hector's death made unbearable for Priam and Hecuba?
HONOR AND DISHONOR
What do you think honor is? What do you think dishonor is?
Why do you think Achilles dreamed the dream?
What did Achilles do to show his deep love for Patroclus?
What did Aphrodite, who Paris chose to give the golden apple to that started the entire war, do protect Hector's body?
What did Achilles do each day to desecrate Hector's body?
King Priam humbled himself out of love and devotion to his son, Hector. What did he did do that was humble? Why did he humble himself?
What did Zeus send Hermes to do? How did he accomplish his task?
Look at each thing that Priam said to Achilles. Why do you think his words managed to pierce Achilles heart and cause him to give Hector's body back to his father? What did respectful did Achilles do that Priam did not ask for?
EPILOGUE
The quarrel between Achilles and Agamemnon was settled, but it cause the death of hundreds of Trojan and Greek warriors and two great heroes. How did Achille's die? How was Apollo to blame as prophesied?
Ajax and Odysseus quarreled over Achilles's armor. What happened in that quarrel?
Why were the Trojans not suspicious of the giant horse?
How did the gods intervene so the Trojans didn't learn the truth about the horse before it was too late? (two)
How was Troy destroyed?
What happened after the war was over?
IS THE ILIAD A TRUE STORY?
This chapter explains why it is thought "The Iliad" is part history and part fiction. Why do they say they happened?
Where are the remains of the city that archaeologists believe was Troy?
Why don't we know whether or not Hector and Achilles were real people?
